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Dwarkesh Podcast

The next big breakthrough will be AIs learning on the job

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Full show notes

Thanks to Mercury for sponsoring this essay.

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Timestamps:

(00:00:00) – The big research bet the labs are making

(00:02:12) – Grindability is just as important as verifiability

(00:06:10) – Will RLVR alone generalize?

(00:08:41) – Getting the learning back to the weights

(00:15:22) – Dreaming

(00:17:23) – What 2027 looks like

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dwarkesh.com

26 Jun 2026 · 19:53 · transcript: transcribed · original

119claims extracted
1speakers named
100%of speech attributed
288transcript segments

Claims

In the order they were said

“So here's the big research bet that all the labs are making. They think that if we train AIs to accomplish millions of verifiable tasks across thousands of diverse RL environments, then we will have basically built AGI because this kind of training will have created a kind of problem-solving agent, the kind of thing that can make progress on open-ended tasks for weeks on end in the face of errors and mistakes and ambiguity.”

Claim: The labs’ research bet is that training AIs on millions of verifiable tasks across thousands of diverse reinforcement-learning environments will produce AGI capable of making progress on open-ended tasks for weeks despite errors and ambiguity.

“And people who are optimistic about this vision will say that all these things that we talk about as the fundamental deficits in the current training paradigm, for example, the data inefficiency of these models or the fact that they lack internal learning, these things can just be steamrolled if we just scale training more.”

Claim: Optimists argue that scaling training further can overcome current training’s fundamental deficits, including data inefficiency and the lack of internal learning.

“Similarly, people would say, look, continue learning. This capability I keep harping about where the model's weights get updated based on what it's learning from deployment may simply not be necessary because if in-context learning gets so good across longer and longer time. or time horizons, then you don't need to distill back everything the model is learning on the job into the weight.”

Claim: If in-context learning improves across longer time horizons, it may be unnecessary to distill all deployment-time learning into model weights.

“I'm sure there's many reasons for this. And one of them, of course, is the fact that the models are exposed to far less high quality multimodal data during pre-training. But one reason that I think is actually quite underrated by people and which I think reveals the canyon walls against which this river of AI progress will only slowly chip away at is that it is not enough for a domain to be verifiable.”

Claim: One reason for slower AI computer-use progress is that models receive much less high-quality multimodal data during pretraining.

“is the fact that the models are exposed to far less high quality multimodal data during pre-training. But one reason that I think is actually quite underrated by people and which I think reveals the canyon walls against which this river of AI progress will only slowly chip away at is that it is not enough for a domain to be verifiable. It also has to be very grindable.”

Claim: For AI training to make rapid progress in a domain, the domain must be not only verifiable but also highly grindable.

“If you're trying to make a model better at coding, you can define some container that has the software repo with some missing feature that you have tasked the AIs with creating. And then you have a thousand parallel agents that go at the problem, each of which has an identical copy of the container.”

Claim: Coding RL can use identical containers containing a software repository and missing feature as starting points for many parallel agents.

“How do we train an AI to get really good at building a business from scratch? How about winning court cases or having a profitable day of trading in the markets or helping a candidate win an election? The rollout here requires interacting with the real world, and you can't recreate it from just within a data center.”

Claim: Training AIs for tasks such as building businesses, winning court cases, profitable trading, or election campaigning requires real-world interaction that cannot be reproduced entirely in a data center.

“The outer loop verification here may take months or even years of real world actions to elicit, and you can't re-observe it by perturbing the model's actions slightly in thousands of parallel rollouts to isolate exactly what the model did that actually worked.”

Claim: In many real-world tasks, verification may require months or years of action, and outcomes cannot be efficiently isolated by running thousands of slightly varied parallel rollouts.

“The last are betting that RLV yard will generalize. That is that if you train on enough containerized reproducible environments, you will develop a very general agent that can make it execute plans and learn rapidly from new information and even pick up new skills, all within a single session.”

Claim: The labs’ RLVR bet is that enough training on containerized, reproducible environments will yield a general agent that can execute plans, rapidly learn from new information, and acquire skills within one session.

“is not infinitely strong but he was explaining why model performance tends to degrade at long context he said there's two things there's the context length you train at and there's a context length that you serve at if you train at a small context length and then try to serve at a long context length like maybe you get these degradations”

Claim: Dario said that model performance tends to degrade at long contexts and that training and serving context lengths are distinct.

“And if you can't generalize from short horizon to long horizon, then how are agents supposed to generalize from getting trained at a bunch of white-collar tasks to, say, having the ability to be dropped in the real world and build a business from scratch as well as Sam Walton?”

Claim: If agents fail to generalize from short- to long-horizon tasks, it is unclear how training on white-collar tasks could enable them to build a business from scratch at Sam Walton’s level.

“all of the successfully shipped online learning models have had to learn the exact same thing across millions of users. For example, the cursor tab model online learns by predicting the same exact objective for over 400 million requests a day, the objective here being which edits actually got accepted. accepted by the user. At least so far, we haven't seen models online learn different kinds of things for different users.”

Claim: Successful online-learning models so far have learned a shared objective across millions of users rather than learning different things for each user.

“but the whole point of continual learning is that the world is very complicated. In each job and company and problem, is different, and you need your intelligence to be able to learn the specific information related to a particular deployment, which simply can't be stuffed into some shared training run.”

Claim: Because jobs, companies, and problems differ, continual learning must acquire deployment-specific information that cannot be captured in a single shared training run.

“These are all the things we're talking about when we talk about on-the-job learning. Things like how does everything in an organization work and fit together? And how to cooperate with all the infrastructure and the other people around you to make progress on some larger project? And what the common failure modes are?”

Claim: On-the-job learning involves understanding organizational systems, collaborating with people and infrastructure, and learning recurring failure modes.

“I just give everybody an email address that goes straight to Mercury, which is my banking platform. Whenever anybody sends an invoice to that address, Mercury automatically downloads it, scans it, and extracts all the relevant information. Things like the contractor name, address, payment amount, invoice number, and due date, and then uses all of this to create a draft payment. Mercury then stores a list of these drafts for me to review.”

Claim: Mercury can process emailed invoices by extracting payment details and creating draft payments for the user to review.

“OPSD preserves this property of supervised learning, where instead of slingshotting towards a teacher distribution as supervised learning would have you do, you only extract the knowledge that is necessary for you to achieve the same results of the teacher on actual real-world tasks.”

Claim: OPSD distills only the knowledge needed to match a teacher’s real-world task results, preserving limited updates instead of fully matching the teacher distribution.

“But there's also another much more speculative idea. Let's call it dreaming. If the AI can build a good simulation of reality against which to rehearse new skills or try alternative strategies and reinforce what actually works, then AIs could experience orders of magnitude more simulated samples in the same wall clock time.”

Claim: If an AI can build a useful simulation of reality for rehearsal and strategy testing, dreaming could provide orders of magnitude more simulated samples per unit of wall-clock time.

“Does this mean that the model was more sample efficient than the humans? Well, that was the goal of the training, but it depends on how you measure sample efficiency because for each step in the real game, Efficient Zero is playing dozens of simulated games in its head. In a similar way, future LLMs might be able to...”

Claim: EfficientZero’s apparent sample efficiency relative to humans depends on whether its dozens of internal simulated games per real-game step are counted.

“This is the crucial thing that RL VR has given you, an AI that is at least competent enough to start getting some real-world experience if it could learn from it. And once you have that, you send it out into the world to do real work, even on projects that are off the training distribution.”

Claim: RLVR could make an AI competent enough to undertake real-world work, including off-distribution projects, provided it can learn from experience.

“And once it does so, the AI starts getting better at domains that are adjacent to what it was explicitly trained to beforehand with our LVR training. And in the next round after that, it can get better at things that are adjacent to... to what it had previously online learned.”

Claim: Continual learning could expand AI capability iteratively from RLVR-trained domains to adjacent domains and then to domains adjacent to prior online learning.

“Just as free training created a base intelligence that was smart enough to become a competent agent with enough ROVR on top, so ROVR has created an agent that is competent enough to be actually broadly deployed in the world. And from this broad deployment to learn on the job, once the training recipe for continual learning actually arrives.”

Claim: The speaker’s proposed progression is that pretraining creates base intelligence, RLVR enables broad deployment, and continual learning enables on-the-job improvement.

“By this point, the main way that AIs get better is not from the training they have received before they are released to the public. Rather, it's from all this experience that they'll be accumulating from being broadly deployed in the economy and engaging in so many different kinds of tasks.”

Claim: In the speaker’s scenario, deployed experience across the economy eventually becomes the main source of AI improvement, surpassing pre-release training.