What Robert Caro learned about power after studying it for 50 years

“Well, let me say first, I think, I hope there, there, there are qualities- ... that I don't share of both these guys.”

Claim: Robert Caro hopes he does not share some qualities of Lyndon Johnson and Robert Moses.

“Among other things, they're so, I'll use the word ruthless, you know? Um, you say they d- they'd do anything to, to win.”

Claim: Robert Caro characterizes Lyndon Johnson and Robert Moses as ruthless and willing to do anything to win.

“That's part of their, uh, greatness. You know, I remember when I started learning about Robert Moses, I went to the La Guardia papers, which were in a-- They were kept in the boat basin.”

Claim: Robert Caro considers ruthlessness part of Lyndon Johnson's and Robert Moses's greatness.

“That's part of their, uh, greatness. You know, I remember when I started learning about Robert Moses, I went to the La Guardia papers, which were in a-- They were kept in the boat basin. They were stored by the Municipal Archives, literally in the 79th Street Boat Basin on the Hudson River, three levels down.”

Claim: Robert Caro found La Guardia's papers in the 79th Street Boat Basin on the Hudson River, three levels down, while researching Robert Moses.

“There were this row of file cabinets, you know, against the wall. So I'm sitting there day after day going through these documents, and occasionally I'd come across a note that Robert Moses wrote, and I realized I'm following the same path he was.”

Claim: While researching Robert Moses, Robert Caro found Moses's notes and felt he was following the same path Moses had taken.

“Um, well, you f- you feel there are certain people that you have to interview, and if they don't want to give you an interview, you can't, I feel, you can't say no.”

Claim: Robert Caro believes that when certain people need to be interviewed, he cannot accept their refusal to be interviewed.

“Like you say Lyndon Johnson's first secretary, the one who rode in the car with him on the campaigns. I said, "There's no other human being on Earth who knows what Lyndon Johnson is doing all these hours driving back and forth across Texas.”

Claim: Robert Caro believed Lyndon Johnson's first secretary was the only person who could explain what Johnson did during his long campaign drives across Texas.

“I don't know what I have to do, but I have to get him-" "... to tell me honestly about this thing," so.”

Claim: Robert Caro felt he had to get Lyndon Johnson's first secretary to speak honestly about Johnson's campaign drives, although Caro did not know what it would take to obtain the interview.

“You ask, you ask terrific questions. Sometimes you're sitting there and you know this person doesn't wanna talk to you about what you wanna get out from, like John Connally on how Johnson used money to get political power.”

Claim: Robert Caro says asking excellent questions can help obtain information from interviewees who are reluctant to discuss a subject.

“You ask, you ask terrific questions. Sometimes you're sitting there and you know this person doesn't wanna talk to you about what you wanna get out from, like John Connally on how Johnson used money to get political power. And, and I'm thinking, "But I've been through the notes. Connally collected the money and gave it out at Johnson's instructions, so he's the only guy who can tell me how Johnson did this, you know, how he judged who to give money to."”

Claim: Robert Caro says John Connally collected and distributed money at Lyndon Johnson's direction and could explain how Johnson used money to gain political power and selected recipients.

“Sometimes Johnson would write on a request for money, if the guy asked for fifteen hundred dollars, Johnson would write, "Okay, fifteen hundred." Sometimes he'd write, "Five hundred." Sometimes he'd write, "No." But sometimes he'd write, "No, never."”

Claim: Robert Caro says Lyndon Johnson's responses to requests for political money varied, including approving $1,500 or $500 and refusing some requests with “No” or “No, never.”

“And I asked Connally, "What did that mean?" He said, "This guy was never gonna get money from Lyndon Johnson."”

Claim: John Connally told Robert Caro that Lyndon Johnson's notation “No, never” meant the requester would never receive money from Johnson.

“So then when you ask why he felt this way about this particular congressman, that's when the really fascinating stories emerge.”

Claim: Robert Caro says asking why Lyndon Johnson felt a particular way about a congressman can bring out fascinating stories.

“They also say, uh, Robert, because of all these safeguards, Robert Moses could not operate in the same way today. But the fact is, when Robert Moses started, there were also safeguards.”

Claim: Robert Caro says safeguards were in place when Robert Moses began his work.

“People were also saying, "You can't build anything." This was in the 1920s. The people were saying, "Government can't build anything. There are too many blocks. Nothing's getting built. We need highways. The, it's the age of cars. Everyone's getting automobiles, but we have the same old roads, and nobody can build them because the property owners don't want the roads built through their land."”

Claim: When Robert Moses began building roads, people argued that government could not build them because they would have to cross many privately owned properties.

“People were also saying, "You can't build anything." This was in the 1920s. The people were saying, "Government can't build anything. There are too many blocks. Nothing's getting built. We need highways. The, it's the age of cars. Everyone's getting automobiles, but we have the same old roads, and nobody can build them because the property owners don't want the roads built through their land."”

Claim: Robert Caro says that in the 1920s people complained that government could not build anything because of numerous obstacles.

“There are too many blocks. Nothing's getting built. We need highways. The, it's the age of cars. Everyone's getting automobiles, but we have the same old roads, and nobody can build them because the property owners don't want the roads built through their land."”

Claim: Robert Caro says that in the 1920s people called for highways as automobile use grew and roads remained unchanged, while property owners resisted roads crossing their land.

“And Robert Moses comes along, and all of a sudden those things vanish because he d- despite all the safeguards and everything else, he just builds.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Robert Moses overcame existing safeguards and obstacles and proceeded to build, despite contemporary claims that construction was impossible.

“And Robert Moses comes along, and all of a sudden those things vanish because he d- despite all the safeguards and everything else, he just builds.”

Claim: Robert Moses found ways to build projects despite safeguards and other obstacles.

“So doing the power broker, it was just fascinating to me to see how he gets around everything. But it doesn't matter what it is, he's gonna build a beach at Jones Beach.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Robert Moses found ways around obstacles and was determined to build Jones Beach.

“He sees it one day, he says, "This is the greatest beach I've ever seen. It's only 27 miles from New York City.”

Claim: Robert Moses regarded Jones Beach as a great beach located 27 miles from New York City.

“He sees it one day, he says, "This is the greatest beach I've ever seen. It's only 27 miles from New York City. If I can build a road out here, g- I will give the people of New York City this great beach." But it seems impossible to build that road because the property owners don't want the road going through their, uh, farms and pr- and property.”

Claim: Robert Moses decided to build a road to Jones Beach, about 27 miles from New York City, despite property owners opposing a route across their land.

“If I can build a road out here, g- I will give the people of New York City this great beach." But it seems impossible to build that road because the property owners don't want the road going through their, uh, farms and pr- and property.”

Claim: Robert Moses believed a road to Jones Beach would give New York City residents access to the beach, despite property owners opposing a route across their farms and property.

“But he basically says, "I'm going to build it." And to watch him do it, to overcome each obstacle, there's so many, and then all of a sudden it's open, and you have Jones Beach, and you have it accessible to New York.”

Claim: Robert Moses overcame obstacles to build the road to Jones Beach, making the beach accessible to New York City.

“But he basically says, "I'm going to build it." And to watch him do it, to overcome each obstacle, there's so many, and then all of a sudden it's open, and you have Jones Beach, and you have it accessible to New York. It's an act of political genius, and it's also an act of will that I'm gonna do it. That's fascinating to learn about.”

Claim: Robert Caro characterizes Robert Moses's overcoming obstacles to build the road and open Jones Beach as an act of political genius and will.

“It's an act of political genius, and it's also an act of will that I'm gonna do it. That's fascinating to learn about.”

Claim: Robert Moses's effort to build Jones Beach demonstrated political genius and determination.

“Well, the answer to that, um, is when Moses was building, they were saying the same thing. "Nobody's, nobody's ever gonna build. We need roads for the automobiles," but they'd have to go through hundreds, dozens of farms, scores of property. No one's ever gonna be able to do it.”

Claim: During Robert Moses's building projects, people said roads could not be built despite demand for them because routes would cross many farms and properties.

“But he comes along and does it. So today, someone would come along and do it.”

Claim: The speaker believes that someone would eventually find a way to build major projects today, as Robert Moses did.

“I'm not sure there is a good spot.”

Claim: The speaker is unsure whether democracies can find a good middle ground between forceful, Moses-like project building and the present situation.

“Um, what you just said is the situation. To build anything on a large scale, um, you're confronted with dozens or scores or perhaps hundreds of property owners who don't want it built there.”

Claim: Large-scale construction can face opposition from dozens, scores, or possibly hundreds of property owners who do not want a project built on their land.

“So the question is, how does anything get built? Then someone comes along and can do it. Now, when Moses, when Robert Moses started, it seemed impossible, actually impossible to build roads out into Long Island because the road would have to cross scores of properties, most of which the people didn't want the roads coming and had the power to stop them then because he didn't have the power of eminent domain then. But Moses said, basically, "I'm gonna build it." And he would find a way to overcome each difficulty.”

Claim: Road construction into Long Island initially seemed impossible because it crossed many properties whose owners could block it, but Robert Moses found ways to overcome each obstacle.

“Now you say, what am I trying to say by that? Trying to say that every once in a while, someone comes along who's sort of a p- a genius, if that's the right word, at getting big things built for the public.”

Claim: Occasionally, a politically gifted person emerges who can get major public projects built.

“Decades may pass when there's no one like that, and you say, "Everything's stalled. Nothing bi- nothing's gonna be, nothing big is ever gonna be built again." And then someone suddenly comes along and all of a sudden things get built. That's the nature of political genius.”

Claim: There may be decades without a person capable of getting major public projects built, followed by the emergence of someone who gets projects moving again.

“I happen to be writing about two guys, Lyndon Johnson and Robert Moses, who in both cases, fa- Johnson with civil rights and, and Moses with, uh, public works, where people were saying, "You can't do this and can't..." But they, but they did it.”

Claim: The speaker is writing about Lyndon Johnson's achievements in civil rights and Robert Moses's achievements in public works, both accomplished despite claims that they could not be done.

“well, I certainly don't want someone as ruthless and disregarding public opinion as a Robert Moses.”

Claim: The speaker does not want a public-project builder who is as ruthless and disregards public opinion as Robert Moses was.

“But at the same time, you need someone who's gonna find a way to get things built, and he's gonna have to find a way despite the fact that so many people don't want it built.”

Claim: The speaker believes society needs a project builder who can get things built despite opposition from many people.

“Well, when, when people say to me everything was bad that he did, what I say is, "You didn't read the book." Because certainly the first parts of the book, well, hundreds of pages, are about a young idealist who sees this great need for recreation, for beaches on Long Island for the city people, and is gonna get a way to make them accessible to the ci- to people in the city. Uh, you say, and it's a act of genius and willpower the way he does it, and that's great.”

Claim: Robert Moses initially pursued beach access on Long Island for city residents as an idealistic project, which Robert Caro characterizes as an act of genius and willpower.

“Now, does it become... Does it evolve into where Moses listens to nobody, and the only thing that matters is what he wants to get built? It does evolve into that. He does change. But the young Moses, the idealist, who before he's building, is an expert in civil service, technicalities of civil service, and devotes all his energies to trying to reform the civil service and make it, uh, that people get promoted on merit instead of political pull.”

Claim: Robert Moses changed from an idealistic builder into someone who disregarded opposition and pursued projects according to his own wishes.

“It does evolve into that. He does change. But the young Moses, the idealist, who before he's building, is an expert in civil service, technicalities of civil service, and devotes all his energies to trying to reform the civil service and make it, uh, that people get promoted on merit instead of political pull.”

Claim: Before his building career, Robert Moses worked to reform civil service by promoting merit-based advancement instead of advancement through political influence.

“And he works so hard in that. You see a real idealism, and you see an idealism in his early works. You know, when you say, "I wanna make these beaches accessible to New York."”

Claim: Robert Moses's early projects reflected an idealistic aim to make beaches accessible to New Yorkers.

“a young, idealistic guy who wants to build to make lives better, better for people, to give them access to the ocean, beaches and all, changes into someone who just wants to build because he thinks something should be built no matter what anyone else says, and is gonna do it no matter how many thousands, hundreds, thousands of people he has to evict.”

Claim: Robert Moses shifted from building to improve people's lives to pursuing projects despite opposition and evicting potentially hundreds of thousands of people.

“No matter how bad an idea it is, like the Cross Bronx Expressway. People are telling him not to do that before he does it.”

Claim: Robert Caro says people warned Robert Moses not to build the Cross Bronx Expressway, which Caro characterizes as a bad idea.

“The minute this road opens, it's the world's longest traffic jam. Not thousands, but tens of thousands of people were evicted, thrown out of their homes by him without any relocation provisions.”

Claim: Robert Caro says the Cross Bronx Expressway's opening produced the world's longest traffic jam.

“The minute this road opens, it's the world's longest traffic jam. Not thousands, but tens of thousands of people were evicted, thrown out of their homes by him without any relocation provisions.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Robert Moses displaced tens of thousands of people from their homes to build the Cross Bronx Expressway without relocation provisions.

“Yes.”

Claim: Robert Caro began writing The Power Broker in 1966 or 1967.

“No, and I watch... Oh, that's a great question. And I watched that happen, and I'm a young, I'm, whatever I was young. And, uh, whether, what- whatever my age was, I didn't really know what I was doing. And I watched him lose power, and I learned enough about him to know how fair this was going to be.”

Claim: While writing The Power Broker, Robert Caro witnessed Robert Moses losing power and came to understand how fair that loss would be.

“His office was still up at the Triborough Bridge Authority. When he was in power, I interviewed him in that office several times. You felt his power. You felt outside there were all these people waiting for his decisions, sitting around waiting for his decisions. W- as soon as I finished, the secretary would come in with a list of telephone calls of people who had called asking for, you know, wanting, uh, wanting something from him while I was talking to him, right?”

Claim: Robert Caro recalls that, during Robert Moses's period of power, people waited at his Triborough Bridge Authority office for decisions and sought things from him.

“By the time I finished, I remember I realized I had one long interview with him. Maybe it was my last one, and I realized there wa- there had been no calls. The secretary had nothing to tell him.”

Claim: Robert Caro recalls that during a later long interview with Robert Moses, the secretary had no calls to report, unlike the earlier pattern of people seeking Moses's help.

“So whatever you thought of Moses, you felt the s- the poignance of someone losing power.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Moses's loss of power felt poignant regardless of one's opinion of him.

“Yeah. You couldn't help feeling sad for him, no matter, no matter even though you knew what he had done. You couldn't help feeling, oh, this is, in a way, tragic that no one's calling and asking him for a favor anymore.”

Claim: Robert Caro felt sadness for Robert Moses as he lost power and people stopped calling to ask him for favors, despite knowing what Moses had done.

“Uh, he knew he wasn't getting his projects done, but he felt... I know, I know he felt he was just gonna keep pushing like he always did, and he was gonna win again.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Robert Moses knew his projects were not being completed but believed he could keep pushing and eventually win again.

“So I don't... I... The answer to your question is no, I don't think he did- ... ever realize that.”

Claim: Robert Caro does not think Robert Moses ever realized that he had lost power.

“He wasn't an elected official. But they couldn't re- there wasn't really a possibility. The answer to the question at the bottom is, no, they couldn't, because he was simply too popular. You know, you couldn't fire Robert Moses. You know, that was, that's like firing, uh, some, some idol, person who was the idol of New York. But in addition, he had, with his genius, he had created in all his different posts, uh, chairman of the State Power Authority, chairman of Triborough Bridge Authority, Parks Commissioner, Long Island Parks Commissioner, Jones Beach Commissioner. He had created such an interlocking, you couldn't fire him from everything because the terms ended in different ways, and some you didn't have the power to fire him from, that he had really made it impossible. I think for s- decades, the answer to your question is, you couldn't do it. But then as he got older, cracks appeared in the armor, and you could, if you, if you wanted to brave w- criticism in all the newspapers and public criticism and everything else, you probably could have done.”

Claim: For decades, Robert Moses was effectively impossible to remove from his public positions because of his popularity and the way his offices had different terms and removal rules.

“Well, almost impossible because at the end, if you wanted to do it, uh, Rockefeller did it. But by that time, cracks had appeared in the armor. I think for s- decades, the answer to your question is, you couldn't do it. But then as he got older, cracks appeared in the armor, and you could, if you, if you wanted to brave w- criticism in all the newspapers and public criticism and everything else, you probably could have done.”

Claim: As Robert Moses grew older and his position weakened, officials probably could have removed him if they were willing to face public and newspaper criticism; Nelson Rockefeller eventually removed him.

“I think if I only had one question to ask him, I think I'd ask him, "Did you realize you were changing?"”

Claim: The speaker would ask Robert Moses whether Moses realized that he was changing.

“No. I think, I think he felt from the beginning that he had this vision for build, uh, roads here and there are parks here.”

Claim: The speaker thinks Robert Moses did not realize he was changing, because Moses believed from the beginning that he had a vision for where roads and parks should be built.

“That was the best thing to do, and it was going to get done, and it should get done. No matter how many hardships he had to inflict on people, no matter how many thousands he had to evict, no matter what he had to do, he was going to get the roads built.”

Claim: Robert Moses believed his road and park projects were the best course and should be completed regardless of the hardships imposed or the thousands of people evicted.

“And you see this increasing ruthlessness, this utter ruthlessness of him. If someone stood in his way, he was gonna find a way to remove that person as an obstacle.”

Claim: Robert Moses became increasingly ruthless and sought to remove people who obstructed his projects.

“Uh, Henry Epstein is opposing the Cross Bronx Expressway. He's saying to Robert Moses, "You're putting it right through a neighborhood where you have to evict tens of thousands of people. You can just move it two blocks to the south, and you only have to evict a couple of hundred people." Moses sets out to destroy Epstein, and basically does by making it known he's having an affair.”

Claim: Henry Epstein opposed the Cross Bronx Expressway route through a neighborhood and argued that shifting it two blocks south would reduce evictions from tens of thousands to a few hundred.

“You can just move it two blocks to the south, and you only have to evict a couple of hundred people." Moses sets out to destroy Epstein, and basically does by making it known he's having an affair.”

Claim: Robert Moses sought to destroy Henry Epstein and effectively did so by publicizing Epstein's affair.

“If he can find a weakness in somebody, that he has a mistress, that he's taking money or something, he'll use it. He'll use whatever he has to to get things done.”

Claim: Robert Moses exploited weaknesses he found in people, including affairs or taking money, to accomplish his goals.

“Uh, he learns that, in my opinion, by failing to get things done when he's very young. He has things that he wants to get done, and they don't get done. And the awareness comes on him, and we can see it in the book or in my learning about him. I try to show how he learns that he has to find w- weaknesses in people.”

Claim: In the speaker's opinion, Robert Moses learned to exploit people's weaknesses after experiencing failures to accomplish his goals when he was young.

“He has to use it. If he ha- if he has a weakness, he's going to use it. He's going to get things done. There's a hardening, an increased ruthlessness, where the only thing that matters is to get the thing done. Anyone who stands in his way, if Moses has to destroy him, he'll destroy him.”

Claim: As Robert Moses became more ruthless, accomplishing his projects became his overriding priority, and he was willing to destroy anyone who obstructed him.

“Yeah. A g- another great q- Yes. The, and the answer to your question is that played a big role because, like, uh, uh, he needed architects for something. I don't remember what it is. It's in The Power Broker. And they lined up on Fifth Avenue, thousands of out-of-work architects, you know, uh, that he could hire for very low wage, you know, very low wages.”

Claim: The Great Depression contributed substantially to Robert Moses's early achievements by making many unemployed architects available to hire at very low wages.

“he needed architects for something. I don't remember what it is. It's in The Power Broker. And they lined up on Fifth Avenue, thousands of out-of-work architects, you know, uh, that he could hire for very low wage, you know, very low wages.”

Claim: During the Depression, Lyndon Johnson could hire thousands of unemployed architects for very low wages.

“he needed architects for something. I don't remember what it is. It's in The Power Broker. And they lined up on Fifth Avenue, thousands of out-of-work architects, you know, uh, that he could hire for very low wage, you know, very low wages. But more than the wages, they were available, you know, because they didn't have anything to do. He was able to hire so many people and hire and fire them in a ruthless way.”

Claim: For Robert Moses's ability to hire large numbers of people during the Great Depression, the availability of unemployed workers mattered more than the low wages he could pay them.

“But more than the wages, they were available, you know, because they didn't have anything to do. He was able to hire so many people and hire and fire them in a ruthless way. You know, making the workmen work hard, you know. He could just fire them. It was The Depression. They didn't have other jobs to go to. I think that was... He used that, yes.”

Claim: Because many workers were unemployed and had no other jobs, Johnson could hire and fire them ruthlessly.

“But more than the wages, they were available, you know, because they didn't have anything to do. He was able to hire so many people and hire and fire them in a ruthless way. You know, making the workmen work hard, you know. He could just fire them. It was The Depression. They didn't have other jobs to go to. I think that was... He used that, yes.”

Claim: Because workers had few alternative jobs during the Great Depression, Robert Moses could make them work hard and hire or fire them ruthlessly.

“Well, one thing that changed is you had all these out-of-work artisans who could, we'll just say, um, carve stonework on buildings.”

Claim: The availability of unemployed artisans who could carve building stonework was one factor in the change in architectural construction.

“I said, "The only person who can see it is the people in my apartment- ... and the people in the apartment next to them." Someone, someone was willing to spend that money because the builders who built that could hire- ... skilled people at such low wages that they could make them, uh, do the decorations to make a building beautiful up on, uh, at, at floors that nobody's gonna see th- gonna see them because people came cheap.”

Claim: Low wages for available skilled workers made it affordable for builders to add elaborate stone decorations in places on buildings that few people could see.

“Behind his persuasion was the power. When you were talking to him, if he asked something of you, you knew he had the power behind him to give you or deny you things that you wanted.”

Claim: Lyndon Johnson's persuasive influence rested on his power to grant or withhold things people wanted.

“Johnson has the power to give him that or not. Or he would know he wants a ps- a specific law, and Johnson has the power to get that law passed or not.”

Claim: Lyndon Johnson had the power to secure passage of a specific law or prevent its passage.

“So behind everything, when Johnson is talking to you and he puts his arm around you and he leans into you, it's not just the force of his personality that he's bringing to bear on you. Behind that personality, you know he has the power to do things to you or for you, uh, that you better be aware of.”

Claim: Lyndon Johnson's influence in personal persuasion came not only from his personality but also from his power to help or harm the person he was addressing.

“You, you couldn't help, uh, I'm not s-- You couldn't help feel... You-- Well, I'll answer you directly. The answer is yes. I think Coke Stevenson, although he was an idealist, he knew how to get things done. When he was governor of Texas, he really accomplished things, okay?”

Claim: Robert Caro wished that Coke Stevenson had won the Senate election.

“The answer is yes. I think Coke Stevenson, although he was an idealist, he knew how to get things done. When he was governor of Texas, he really accomplished things, okay?”

Claim: Robert Caro believes Coke Stevenson was an idealist who knew how to get things done and achieved results as governor of Texas.

“I think if he went to the Senate, he would have been a great senator and accomplished things. So you wish that he had,”

Claim: Robert Caro thinks Coke Stevenson would have been a great senator and achieved results if he had served in the Senate.

“um, won. Uh, you, you feel the tragedy that he lost because of the way he lost, you know. The thing is about Coke Stevenson, he really didn't realize someone could do all the things to him and in the election that Lyn- that Lyndon Johnson did. He didn't come to grips with that.”

Claim: Robert Caro sees tragedy in Coke Stevenson's loss because Stevenson did not realize or come to terms with the actions Lyndon Johnson could take against him in the election.

“No. Because Kennedy w- Kennedy did not have the overriding desire-”

Claim: Caro says Kennedy did not have the overriding desire, but the transcript cuts off before specifying what desire he meant.

“... to change America. We see no, uh, John Kennedy was utterly charming. He was a good president.”

Claim: Robert Caro describes John F. Kennedy as charming and as a good president.

“He was good in p- foreign policy, where Johnson certainly was not. But what he did not have”

Claim: Robert Caro says John F. Kennedy performed well in foreign policy, whereas Lyndon Johnson did not.

“t- vision, this desire to change America that Lyndon Johnson had. Lyndon Johnson comes back from his year teaching the poor kids in Cotulla, determined to change the education system to help poor people more, to do all these other things to help poor, poor people.”

Claim: After a year teaching poor children in Cotulla, Lyndon Johnson was determined to change America by improving education and helping poor people.

“That determination is something that's really unique. It's what made him domestically such a great president, that we have all these civil rights laws, these anti-poverty laws that we wouldn't have had without Lyndon Johnson.”

Claim: Robert Caro argues that Lyndon Johnson's determination to help people domestically made him a great domestic president and was essential to the passage of civil-rights and anti-poverty laws.

“Uh, his presidency ends in tragedy because of foreign policy, because of Vietnam, but he has this th- this ideal- this desire to get things done to help people in America that's almost unique.”

Claim: Robert Caro characterizes Lyndon Johnson's presidency as ending tragically because of Vietnam and foreign policy, despite Johnson's exceptional desire to help people in America.

“When he s- his attention turns to Vietnam and everything falls apart, and he makes it, you know, it's all, he, he, his presidency is ruined.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Lyndon Johnson's presidency was ruined when Johnson turned his attention to Vietnam and events fell apart.

“The things he started out to do domestically don't get done in the way he would've done them. But he starts out in, uh, after the election with the education laws, with the anti-poverty bills to change the country, and he's on his way to doing it.”

Claim: Lyndon Johnson's domestic initiatives did not ultimately proceed as he would have carried them out, although after the election he began pursuing education laws and anti-poverty bills intended to change the country.

“Oh, uh, you know, and the answer to your question is, I'm still trying to figure that out- ... right now, so I'm not gonna-”

Claim: Robert Caro says he is still trying to understand why Lyndon Johnson kept escalating the Vietnam War.

“I think it's just their will.”

Claim: Robert Caro attributes Lyndon Johnson's and Robert Moses's seemingly inexhaustible energy primarily to their will.

“I mean, l- a lot of people have their energy. You know, when you see, um, Robert Moses sleeping very little, showing that he'd do anything to get his, his way, to get th- to get things done, being tired or something doesn't even seem to figure in- into the equation. Sometimes I'm looking at, you know, uh, I, I can't remember one off the top of my head, and you'll say, "He's making this call," and Johnson's making this call at 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Robert Moses slept very little and appeared willing to do anything to achieve his aims, with tiredness seemingly irrelevant to him.

“being tired or something doesn't even seem to figure in- into the equation. Sometimes I'm looking at, you know, uh, I, I can't remember one off the top of my head, and you'll say, "He's making this call," and Johnson's making this call at 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning. He's up making these calls to get his way. I, in, in fact, there's a funny anecdote. One senator, uh, Johnson calls him at, uh, 5:00 AM to ask him for his vote on something, and the senator says, "Oh, Lyndon, I was just lying here waiting for your call."”

Claim: Robert Caro recounts that Lyndon Johnson made political calls at 2 or 3 a.m. and once called a senator at 5 a.m. to seek the senator's vote.

“Well, well, well, part of your question is, how do you be sure you're on the right track? The answer to that is you're not, okay?”

Claim: Robert Caro says a writer cannot be sure they are on the right track while writing a book.

“Before I start a book, I learned this the hard way with The Power Broker, 'cause I didn't do it with The Power Broker. Before I start a book, I think through what I want the book to be, the whole book. People say, "You mean you think it through to the end?" Well, the answer is yes. And then you say, "Well, what is this book about?" And I sit at that desk sometimes- For a long time before I start write, when I'm thinking about the book, just asking myself in one way or another, "What is this book about?"”

Claim: Before beginning a book, Robert Caro plans the book as a whole and considers its central subject.

“I learned this the hard way with The Power Broker, 'cause I didn't do it with The Power Broker. Before I start a book,”

Claim: Robert Caro says he learned through writing The Power Broker that he should determine a book's overall purpose before beginning it.

“You gotta get it down to one sentence. You say, "Well, you can't get it down to one sentence." Then you say, "Yeah, but Bob, you learned you better get it down to one sentence, or three years from now you're gonna be writing and you're gonna be saying, 'What am I trying to do?'" So before I start a book, I try to get it down to, I said a sentence or at most a paragraph and say, "Really, what is this book about?"”

Claim: Before starting a book, Robert Caro tries to state its purpose in one sentence or, at most, one paragraph.

“And I try to make everything hang together around that point.”

Claim: Robert Caro organizes each book so that all its parts cohere around its central point.

“Well, they're making a big difference right now.”

Claim: Robert Caro says digital archives and the internet are making a big difference to his work at present.

“The book I'm doing now, I'm writing about Vietnam. Um, let's say there's-- I wanna do a battle. I wanna write in detail. Well, this just happened. I wanna write about it. I picked a battle that I wanted to do in detail.”

Claim: Robert Caro is writing a book about Vietnam and wants to describe a battle in detail.

“It's called the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley. Nobody's written about it in detail. But I could go to my computer, and I could look up where are the oral histories from soldiers who fought in that battle, uh, and you just...”

Claim: Robert Caro chose the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley for detailed treatment and says it has not been written about in detail.

“It's called the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley. Nobody's written about it in detail. But I could go to my computer, and I could look up where are the oral histories from soldiers who fought in that battle, uh, and you just... Whe- what, what colleges are the oral histories at? Uh, what documents are available in a way you couldn't do it before.”

Claim: Robert Caro can use a computer to locate the institutions holding oral histories from soldiers who fought in the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley.

“No. Be-- No. Well, well, it would've, might've made things faster, but it would've made it... It wouldn't... Just the way I am- ... I would look at the documents anyway. I, I... Things would, things would go faster now. But I think about what you just asked. I was thinking about it the other day, and it's difficult for me to explain it, but I don't think it would've been any... I don't think it would've gone any faster. I, I can't quite tell you why, but, um, certainly you could find the documents faster. But finding them is a small thing-”

Claim: Robert Caro says modern tools could help him locate documents faster, but he does not think they would have made writing his earlier books faster because he would still have read the documents.

“I, I can't quite tell you why, but, um, certainly you could find the documents faster. But finding them is a small thing- ... compared to reading them- ... you know.”

Claim: Robert Caro considers locating documents a small task compared with reading them.

“Like, I gave Bob Gottlieb, my editor, a manuscript that it was one million and fifty thousand words long. And the most they could fit in, and he really worked at this, into one volume, 'cause I was determined to... it would only be one volume, was seven hundred pages or be- uh, about, uh, about seven hundred thousand words instead of a million fifty thousand words, which meant we had to cut three hundred and fifty thousand words.”

Claim: Robert Caro insisted that The Power Broker be published as one volume; fitting it into one volume required cutting its manuscript from 1,050,000 to about 700,000 words, a reduction of 350,000 words.

“Like, I gave Bob Gottlieb, my editor, a manuscript that it was one million and fifty thousand words long. And the most they could fit in, and he really worked at this, into one volume, 'cause I was determined to... it would only be one volume,”

Claim: Robert Caro submitted a 1,050,000-word manuscript of The Power Broker to editor Bob Gottlieb.

“And he has said I cut a lot of the best stuff I ever read.”

Claim: Robert Caro reports that his editor, Bob Gottlieb, said Caro had cut much of the best material Gottlieb had ever read.

“And I felt a lot of the stuff that I cut out, it's tragic that no one knows it. To this day, people, they ask me about things.”

Claim: Robert Caro considers it tragic that readers do not know much of the material he cut from his books.

“But the way I am, I don't know that I would've changed anything because as I'm writing the book, I'm saying, "Oh, this is too long. This is gonna be too long. I'm gonna have to cut so much." But I don't seem to have the ability not to write the stuff that I s- think should be written, even though I know so much of it is h- gonna have to be cut.”

Claim: Robert Caro says he may not have changed his writing approach: although he knows a book is becoming too long and much will need to be cut, he feels unable to omit material he believes should be written.

“I mean, sometimes, uh, you're reading something and you're saying, "Oh, if I had written about that- ... the newspapers wouldn't be covering it the same way. There'd be a different understanding of it." I'll give you a, an easy example.”

Claim: Robert Caro believes that writing more about Sam Rayburn would have changed newspaper coverage and public understanding of Rayburn.

“Now, I have a brief chapter on Rayburn in my books, but Rayburn is a great figure in American history.”

Claim: Robert Caro considers Sam Rayburn a great figure in American history and says his books give Rayburn only a brief chapter.

“There's no good biography of Sam Rayburn, yet he controlled, he ran the House of Representatives. He passed so many of Roosevelt's bills and other bills.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Sam Rayburn led the House of Representatives and helped pass many of Franklin D. Roosevelt's bills and other legislation.

“There's no good biography of Sam Rayburn, yet he controlled, he ran the House of Representatives. He passed so many of Roosevelt's bills and other bills.”

Claim: Robert Caro says no good biography of Sam Rayburn exists.

“He did so much for America that it's a tragedy for me that nobody knows it.”

Claim: Robert Caro believes Sam Rayburn made major contributions to America and considers it tragic that the public does not know about them.

“And the material to know it is in those cabinets.”

Claim: Robert Caro says his file cabinets contain material that can help people understand Sam Rayburn's contributions.

“Like, I have hundreds of interviews, you know? I think I have 700 interviews for The Power Broker alone. The notes for those interviews are in the file cabinets, detailed, you know, the detailed typed-up notes.”

Claim: Robert Caro says he has hundreds of interviews, about 700 for The Power Broker alone, with detailed typed notes preserved in his file cabinets.

“there's a lot there that I think would, uh, help people understand how New York evolved the way it did.”

Claim: Robert Caro believes material in his archives could help people understand how New York evolved.

“And with Johnson, a lot... Well, I'm writing about it now. Uh, things that happened under his presidency. There's more understanding of it, and it's not gonna make its way into my books, but they're going to be there.”

Claim: Robert Caro says his archive will preserve material about events during Lyndon Johnson's presidency that he is writing about but will not include in his books.

“That's why I gave my archive to the New-York Historical Society. Now, I have to say, I was offered a lot more money by other places, okay? I took a lot less money, a great deal less money, an amount that mattered a lot to me, because I wanted them to be easily accessible.”

Claim: Robert Caro says he donated his archive to the New-York Historical Society to make it easily accessible.

“That's why I gave my archive to the New-York Historical Society. Now, I have to say, I was offered a lot more money by other places, okay? I took a lot less money, a great deal less money, an amount that mattered a lot to me, because I wanted them to be easily accessible.”

Claim: Robert Caro says he received higher offers from other institutions but accepted substantially less money for his archive to ensure accessibility.

“I wanted them to be in New York. E- You know, I, I didn't want them to be at the University of Texas, where you have to fly, you know, fly down there. I want it to, to be in New York. The material is there for a lot of stuff that I never got to put in my books, but it's there if somebody wants it.”

Claim: Robert Caro wanted his archive located in New York rather than at the University of Texas because he wanted access to be convenient for people.

“I want it to, to be in New York. The material is there for a lot of stuff that I never got to put in my books, but it's there if somebody wants it.”

Claim: Robert Caro says his archive contains material omitted from his books that remains available for interested researchers.

“I wrote so much more, and I have so mu- I interviewed so many senators, so many assistants to senators, to try and write about the Senate. And then I had to cut out or not write or even go into the vast, I don't want to say 90%, but I don't really know what percent, of what I learned is not in the books. But they are in the file cabinets.”

Claim: Robert Caro says he interviewed many senators and Senate aides, and that an unspecified large share of what he learned was omitted from his books but preserved in his file cabinets.

“So they're there for someone to look at. That's why, uh, my archives are in New York.”

Claim: Robert Caro says he placed his archives in New York so people could consult them.

“Well, I hope so”

Claim: Robert Caro hopes his research will eventually prove valuable to others.

“I mean, I wanted to do this book. What was it like to take your family- And move them to the frontier, to move them num- on a one level to Indian country where you might f-find your family massacred one day.”

Claim: Robert Caro says that frontier settlers could move into Indian country where their family might be massacred.

“Uh, and if even with the, all these other difficulties and all, well, that's sort of in my books because pe- in my notes, because when I was talking to people, they would talk about their grandfathers or what their grandfathers told them, you know? And when I'm talking to them about Johnson, I'm learning all about what life was like in that era.”

Claim: Robert Caro says that interviews about Lyndon Johnson taught him about life in Johnson's era through interviewees' accounts of their grandfathers and their grandfathers' stories.

“I say, "What an amazing, amazing story this is." And you say, "Well, there, there's a lot of books on it." I happen to think there are not enough.”

Claim: Robert Caro believes that too few books have been written about the history of life in the Hill Country.

“Oh, oh, the answer is yes. Um, he was very aware of the frontier, of what his grandfather, you know, the, the land, what it was like. See, when he grew up in Johnson City, in the outskirts on the Johnson Ranch, which after all was 18 miles beyond Johnson City, what it was like to grow up on a ranch like that.”

Claim: Robert Caro says Lyndon Johnson was very aware of the frontier and of the conditions on his grandfather's land.

“of the frontier, of what his grandfather, you know, the, the land, what it was like. See, when he grew up in Johnson City, in the outskirts on the Johnson Ranch, which after all was 18 miles beyond Johnson City, what it was like to grow up on a ranch like that. In so many ways it was different and it formed your character in a different way. Loneliness is a b- loneliness is a big deal.”

Claim: Robert Caro says that growing up on a ranch 18 miles beyond Johnson City shaped character differently in many ways, with loneliness being a major factor.

“I wrote a, a, a, a sec- and then I had to cut it down to like three pages on, on his mother, on how lonely she was, what it was like for people to settle their farms and ranches where there was nobody around you.”

Claim: Robert Caro says he reduced his section about Lyndon Johnson's mother's loneliness and the isolation of settling remote farms and ranches to about three pages.

“I think I have a line where, you know, she could walk out in the afternoon, walk up on a hill, and there was nothing to see but more hills, and no one's-- there were no other houses near there.”

Claim: Robert Caro says that Johnson's mother lived in a place where walking up a hill revealed only more hills and no nearby houses.

“I myself was shocked. Sometimes you would go to see, to interview an el- I was trying to interview everybody who grew up with Jo- Lyndon Johnson, so they were elderly people, okay?”

Claim: Robert Caro says he tried to interview everyone who grew up with Lyndon Johnson, and those interviewees were elderly when he spoke with them.

“So you'd, you'd, you'd, you'd call an el- an elderly woman, and she'd say, uh, "You go, you drive out of Austin, uh, 22 miles and you'll come to a-- l-look on your left, you'll find a cattle cross, cattle guard. You turn and then there's a dirt road there. You turn left on the dirt road and 22 miles to Moore farm."”

Claim: Robert Caro recounts that an elderly woman gave him directions from Austin involving a 22-mile drive, a turn onto a dirt road, and another 22 miles to the Moore farm.

“And you say, "I drove 22 miles. I didn't pass another house. I didn't pass another person." And this woman is living there all her life.”

Claim: Robert Caro says that he drove 22 miles without passing another house or person to visit a woman who had lived in that isolated area all her life.

“So I don't think, and with all the wonderful books that have been written, I'm, I'm not sure that America understands the heroism of just being lo- forgetting Indians and raiders, just being the loneliness of what, what life was like for these pe- for, for these people.”

Claim: Robert Caro is unsure whether America understands the heroism involved in enduring the loneliness of frontier life.

“Well, you know, I come here in the, in the morning and I turn off my telephone. I'm not gonna talk to anybody all day.”

Claim: Robert Caro says that he turns off his telephone when he arrives in the morning and does not speak to anyone during the workday.

“Sometimes that very fact is hard, as a matter of fact, you know? You'd like to pick up the phone and chat with somebody, but just, you say, "I'm concentrating on the book," you know? "I can't do that. It's gonna break the concentration," you know? And well, that's such a, sounds like such a phony, uh, thing. But you say, "I ca- I can't really do that. I'm trying to think about this oth- other thing."”

Claim: Robert Caro says that he sometimes wants to talk with someone but avoids calls and conversation because he is concentrating on his book and fears losing concentration.

“And I think that, you know, it's impacted my entire life, you know? Uh, people don't-- Some people understand,”

Claim: Robert Caro says that his work-related isolation has affected his entire life.

“but some people don't understand that you don't call them back, you know? I mean, if people call me, I'm not gonna call them back till the end of the day. So I have friends who understand that, but a lot of people don't understand that. Um,”

Claim: Robert Caro says that he returns people's calls only at the end of the day.

“but some people don't understand that you don't call them back, you know? I mean, if people call me, I'm not gonna call them back till the end of the day. So I have friends who understand that, but a lot of people don't understand that. Um,”

Claim: Robert Caro says some friends understand that he delays returning calls, while many other people do not.